diff --git a/src/Dodge/Creature/State.hs b/src/Dodge/Creature/State.hs
index 72a8649a3..af4b4c9c5 100644
--- a/src/Dodge/Creature/State.hs
+++ b/src/Dodge/Creature/State.hs
@@ -286,7 +286,6 @@ updateAttachedItems itmtree cr =
         chainLinkOrientation
         chainLinkOrientation
         (updateItemWithOrientation cr)
-        --(heldItemRelativeOrient (itmtree ^. ldtValue . _1) cr (0, Q.qID))
         (handHandleOrient (LocLDT TopLDT itmtree) cr)
         (LocLDT TopLDT itmtree)
 
diff --git a/src/Dodge/Data/Muzzle.hs b/src/Dodge/Data/Muzzle.hs
index db559a01d..4809f19fb 100644
--- a/src/Dodge/Data/Muzzle.hs
+++ b/src/Dodge/Data/Muzzle.hs
@@ -14,7 +14,7 @@ data Muzzle = Muzzle
     , _mzFlareType :: FlareType
     , _mzEffect :: MuzzleEffect
     , _mzAmmoPerShot :: AmmoPerShot
---    , _mzFrame :: Int
+    , _mzRandomOffset :: Float
     }
     deriving (Eq, Ord, Show, Read) --Generic, Flat)
 
diff --git a/src/Dodge/HeldUse.hs b/src/Dodge/HeldUse.hs
index 4c54bada8..ec125573e 100644
--- a/src/Dodge/HeldUse.hs
+++ b/src/Dodge/HeldUse.hs
@@ -164,22 +164,23 @@ heldItemMuzzles = \case
             NoFlare
             MuzzleShootBullet
             (UseExactly 1)
+            0
         | --            0
         a <- spreadAroundCenter i baseStickSpread
         ]
             & ix 0 . mzFlareType .~ NoLightFlare
             & ix (i `div` 2) . mzFlareType .~ BasicFlare
             & ix (i -1) . mzFlareType .~ NoLightFlare
-    PISTOL -> [Muzzle (V2 10 0) 0 0.05 0 BasicFlare MuzzleShootBullet (UseExactly 1)]
-    MACHINEPISTOL -> [Muzzle (V2 10 0) 0 0.3 0 MiniGunFlare MuzzleShootBullet (UseExactly 1)]
-    AUTOPISTOL -> [Muzzle (V2 10 0) 0 0 0 BasicFlare MuzzleShootBullet (UseExactly 1)]
-    SMG -> [Muzzle (V2 20 0) 0 0.05 0 BasicFlare MuzzleShootBullet (UseExactly 1)]
+    PISTOL -> [Muzzle (V2 10 0) 0 0.05 0 BasicFlare MuzzleShootBullet (UseExactly 1) 0]
+    MACHINEPISTOL -> [Muzzle (V2 10 0) 0 0.3 0 MiniGunFlare MuzzleShootBullet (UseExactly 1) 0]
+    AUTOPISTOL -> [Muzzle (V2 10 0) 0 0 0 BasicFlare MuzzleShootBullet (UseExactly 1) 0]
+    SMG -> [Muzzle (V2 20 0) 0 0.05 0 BasicFlare MuzzleShootBullet (UseExactly 1) 0]
     RIFLE -> dbwMuzzles & ix 0 . mzPos .~ V2 25 0
     BURSTRIFLE -> dbwMuzzles & ix 0 . mzPos .~ V2 25 0 & ix 0 . mzInaccuracy .~ 0.05
     MINIGUNX i ->
         replicate
             i
-            (Muzzle (V2 30 0) 0 0.05 0 NoFlare MuzzleShootBullet (UseExactly 1))
+            (Muzzle (V2 30 0) 0 0.05 0 NoFlare MuzzleShootBullet (UseExactly 1) 10)
             & ix 0 . mzFlareType .~ MiniGunFlare
     BANGROD ->
         dbwMuzzles
@@ -205,9 +206,9 @@ heldItemMuzzles = \case
             & ix 0 . mzPos .~ V2 30 0
             & ix 0 . mzFlareType .~ HeavySmokeFlare
             & ix 0 . mzInaccuracy .~ 0
-    BANGCONE -> [Muzzle (V2 15 0) 0 0.5 0 BasicFlare MuzzleShootBullet (UseUpTo 15)]
-    BLUNDERBUSS -> [Muzzle (V2 30 0) 0 0.5 0 BasicFlare MuzzleShootBullet (UseUpTo 15)]
-    GRAPECANNON _ -> [Muzzle (V2 30 0) 0 0.5 0 BasicFlare MuzzleShootBullet (UseUpTo 15)]
+    BANGCONE -> [Muzzle (V2 15 0) 0 0.5 0 BasicFlare MuzzleShootBullet (UseUpTo 15) 12]
+    BLUNDERBUSS -> [Muzzle (V2 30 0) 0 0.5 0 BasicFlare MuzzleShootBullet (UseUpTo 15) 12]
+    GRAPECANNON i -> [Muzzle (V2 30 0) 0 0.5 0 BasicFlare MuzzleShootBullet (UseUpTo 15) (12 + 4*fromIntegral i)]
     TORCH -> dbwMuzzles & ix 0 . mzPos .~ V2 10 0
     VOLLEYGUN{} -> error "should get volleygun muzzles earlier"
     FLAMETHROWER -> flameMuzzles
@@ -229,6 +230,7 @@ heldItemMuzzles = \case
                 <*> pure NoFlare
                 <*> pure MuzzleRLauncher
                 <*> pure (UseExactly 1)
+                <*> pure 0
             )
     LASER ->
         dbwMuzzles
@@ -282,7 +284,7 @@ heldItemMuzzles = \case
             , _mzFlareType = NoFlare
             , _mzEffect = MuzzleShootBullet
             , _mzAmmoPerShot = UseExactly 1
-            --            , _mzFrame = 0
+            , _mzRandomOffset = 0
             }
         ]
 
@@ -290,7 +292,7 @@ baseStickSpread :: Float
 baseStickSpread = 0.2
 
 dbwMuzzles :: [Muzzle]
-dbwMuzzles = [Muzzle (V2 15 0) 0 0.01 0 BasicFlare MuzzleShootBullet (UseExactly 1)]
+dbwMuzzles = [Muzzle (V2 15 0) 0 0.01 0 BasicFlare MuzzleShootBullet (UseExactly 1) 0]
 
 flameMuzzles :: [Muzzle]
 flameMuzzles =
@@ -306,6 +308,7 @@ flameMuzzles =
             , _nzWalkSpeed = 0.01
             }
         (UseExactly 1)
+        0
     ]
 
 vgunMuzzles :: Int -> [Muzzle]
@@ -316,7 +319,7 @@ vgunMuzzles i =
             <*> pure BasicFlare
             <*> pure MuzzleShootBullet
             <*> pure (UseExactly 1)
-            --            <*> ZipList [0 .. i -1]
+            <*> pure 0
         )
 
 doHeldUseEffect :: LDTree ItemLink OItem -> Creature -> World -> World
@@ -696,11 +699,10 @@ makeMuzzleFlare mz loc cr = case mz ^. mzFlareType of
               )
     TeslaGunFlare -> cWorld . lWorld . lights .:~ LSParam (pos `v2z` 10) 100 (V3 0 0 1)
   where
-    itmtree = loc ^. locLDT
-    itm = itmtree ^. ldtValue
-    (moff, mrot) = heldItemOrient2D' itm cr (_mzPos mz) (_mzRot mz)
-    pos = _crPos cr + rotateV (_crDir cr) moff
-    dir = _crDir cr + mrot
+    (V3 x y _,q) = locOrient loc cr 
+        `Q.comp` (_mzPos mz `v2z` 0, Q.axisAngle (V3 0 0 1) (_mzRot mz))
+    pos = _crPos cr + rotateV (_crDir cr) (V2 x y)
+    dir = _crDir cr + Q.qToAng q
     oddcheck f w
         | odd (w ^. cWorld . lWorld . lClock) = f w
         | otherwise = w
@@ -979,59 +981,16 @@ shootBullets loc cr (mz, x, magtree) w = fromMaybe w $ do
 shootBullet :: Bullet -> LocationLDT ItemLink OItem -> Creature -> Muzzle -> World -> World
 shootBullet bu loc cr mz w = makeBullet bu itm bulpos dir . (randGen .~ g) $ w
   where
+    (V3 x y _,q) = locOrient loc cr 
+        `Q.comp` ((_mzPos mz + V2 0 offset) `v2z` 0, Q.axisAngle (V3 0 0 1) (_mzRot mz))
     itm = loc ^. locLDT . ldtValue . _1
-    bulpos = _crPos cr + rotateV (_crDir cr) moff
-    (moff, mrot) = heldItemOrient2D itm cr (_mzPos mz + V2 0 offset) (_mzRot mz)
+    bulpos = _crPos cr + rotateV (_crDir cr) (V2 x y)
     (a, g) = randomR (- inacc, inacc) $ _randGen w
-    dir = _crDir cr + mrot + a
+    dir = _crDir cr + Q.qToAng q + a
     inacc = _mzInaccuracy mz
-    offset = case itemRandomOffset <$> itm ^? itType . ibtHeld of
-        Just x | x /= 0 -> fst . randomR (- x, x) $ _randGen w
-        _ -> 0
-
-itemRandomOffset :: HeldItemType -> Float
-itemRandomOffset = \case
-    BANGSTICK{} -> 0
-    REWINDER -> 0
-    TIMESTOPPER -> 0
-    TIMESCROLLER -> 0
-    PISTOL -> 0
-    MACHINEPISTOL -> 0
-    AUTOPISTOL -> 0
-    SMG -> 0
-    BANGCONE -> 12
-    BLUNDERBUSS -> 12
-    GRAPECANNON i -> 12 + 4 * fromIntegral i
-    MINIGUNX{} -> 10
-    VOLLEYGUN{} -> 0
-    RIFLE -> 0
-    ALTERIFLE -> 0
-    AUTORIFLE -> 0
-    BURSTRIFLE -> 0
-    BANGROD -> 0
-    ELEPHANTGUN -> 0
-    AMR -> 0
-    AUTOAMR -> 0
-    SNIPERRIFLE -> 0
-    FLAMESPITTER -> 0
-    FLAMETHROWER -> 0
-    FLAMETORRENT -> 0
-    FLAMEWALL -> 0
-    BLOWTORCH -> 0
-    SPARKGUN -> 0
-    TESLAGUN -> 0
-    LASER -> 0
-    TRACTORGUN -> 0
-    RLAUNCHER -> 0
-    RLAUNCHERX{} -> 0
-    GLAUNCHER -> 0
-    POISONSPRAYER -> 0
-    SHATTERGUN -> 0
-    TORCH -> 0
-    FLATSHIELD -> 0
-    KEYCARD{} -> 0
-    BLINKER -> 0
-    BLINKERUNSAFE -> 0
+    offset = case mz ^. mzRandomOffset of
+        0 -> 0
+        i -> fst . randomR (- i, i) $ _randGen w
 
 makeBullet :: Bullet -> Item -> Point2 -> Float -> World -> World
 makeBullet thebullet itm bulpos dir w =
diff --git a/src/Dodge/Item/HeldOffset.hs b/src/Dodge/Item/HeldOffset.hs
index 262ad4e8c..b2831efb0 100644
--- a/src/Dodge/Item/HeldOffset.hs
+++ b/src/Dodge/Item/HeldOffset.hs
@@ -7,8 +7,7 @@ module Dodge.Item.HeldOffset (
     heldItemRelativeOrient,
     heldItemOrient2D,
     heldItemOrient2D',
---    itemRelativeOrient,
-    locOrientation,
+    locOrient,
     handHandleOrient,
 ) where
 
@@ -18,9 +17,7 @@ import Dodge.Data.ComposedItem
 import Dodge.Data.Creature
 import Dodge.Data.DoubleTree
 import Dodge.Data.Machine
-import Dodge.DoubleTree
 import Dodge.Item.AimStance
-import Dodge.Item.Orientation
 import Geometry
 import LensHelp
 import qualified Quaternion as Q
@@ -95,8 +92,8 @@ handOrient cr = case cr ^. crStance . posture of
     f i = 0.1 * fromIntegral (sLen - i) / fromIntegral sLen
     sLen = _strideLength $ _crStance cr
 
-locOrientation :: LocationLDT ItemLink OItem -> Creature -> Point3Q
-locOrientation loc cr = handHandleOrient (fmap (\(x,y,_) -> (x,y)) loc) cr `Q.comp` 
+locOrient :: LocationLDT ItemLink OItem -> Creature -> Point3Q
+locOrient loc cr = handHandleOrient (fmap (\(x,y,_) -> (x,y)) loc) cr `Q.comp` 
         (loc ^. locLDT . ldtValue . _3)
 --    heldItemRelativeOrient
 --        (locToTop loc ^. locLDT . ldtValue . _1)
@@ -187,12 +184,3 @@ heldHandlePos = \case
     KEYCARD{} -> V2 3 0
     BLINKER -> V2 3 0
     BLINKERUNSAFE -> V2 3 0
-
-itemRelativeOrient ::
-    LocationLDT ItemLink Item ->
-    Creature ->
-    (Point3, Q.Quaternion Float) ->
-    (Point3, Q.Quaternion Float)
-itemRelativeOrient loc cr =
-    heldItemRelativeOrient (locToTop loc ^. locLDT . ldtValue) cr
-        . orientLocation (V3 0 0 0, Q.qID) loc
diff --git a/src/Quaternion.hs b/src/Quaternion.hs
index 40f5d24db..0d572315f 100644
--- a/src/Quaternion.hs
+++ b/src/Quaternion.hs
@@ -13,12 +13,14 @@ module Quaternion (
     qID,
     qToV3,
     qToV2,
+    qToAng,
     rotateToZ,
     vToQuat,
     comp,
     module Linear.Quaternion,
 ) where
 
+import Geometry.Vector
 import Data.Aeson
 import Geometry.Data
 import Geometry.Vector3D
@@ -52,6 +54,9 @@ qToV3 q = Q.rotate q (V3 1 0 0)
 qToV2 :: Q.Quaternion Float -> Point2
 qToV2 = (\(V3 x y _) -> V2 x y) . qToV3
 
+qToAng :: Quaternion Float -> Float
+qToAng = argV . qToV2
+
 qID :: Q.Quaternion Float
 qID = Q.axisAngle (V3 1 0 0) 0